It was immediately obvious when I approached Derryl DePriest and began speaking that they knew articulation was an issue that was going to arise today. Â Between Mr. DePriest and designer John Warden, there were a lot of articulation questions flying around, and as many of us suspected, it all boils down to cost.
Yes, of course there are costs associated with new tooling for figures that are 5 points of articulation, but as explained from Mr. DePriest, it’s more than just the new tooling. Â Manufacturing costs for figures with that many joints and movement points are extremely expensive above and beyond the tooled parts, so even using existing tooling was cost prohibitive in most cases.
They weighed this fact with the idea that many of these vehicles were being geared for children, who would do little more than slam the figure in the cockpit and drive it around, and the decision was made…if they had to cut articulation, the drivers were the best place to do it. Â It is a constant battle between quality of the product and the costs that can be absorbed creating that product, and in a year when they are trying to build the brand back up, they have to be extremely prudent.
John Warden also brought up some interesting discussion points in regard to costs of vehicle production. Â As a fandom, we’ve been complaining pretty heavily about vehicle size, and they’ve taken that into consideration. Â By reducing articulation and reducing costs associated with the vehicles, they can balance things out and end up producing vehicles that are a bit larger than we might be used to. Â The Ghost Hawk II is a perfect example. Â This vehicle was surprisingly large I thought when I was in the showroom, and I honestly didn’t think Hasbro would be able to make it the size I would have wanted, but they did, and some of that is due to costs saved with reduced articulation.
So even though it seems to many of us that the trade off isn’t worth while, we are getting a somewhat larger vehicle, and some other very nicely designed vehicles to go along with it. Â Mr. Warden confirmed that the heads of the driver figures are totally swappable to normal figures and he even name dropped Rock n Roll as being an inspiration for the Clutch figure. Â It sounded to me like there was much careful consideration and financial analysis done, short term and long term, and the articulation changes are going to save money, which could mean better things in the future. Â I’m not happy with the way the driver figures look, but the vehicles are excellent, by and large, and the toyline is very nice as well.
As for the single pack figures…John Warden also confirmed that some of those figures have reduced articulation, but as I deduced on a recent episode of What’s on Joe Mind, it’s due to form and function. Â Articulation is given on an “as needed” basis, so generic troopers might not get the full range of motion, but the ninjas do. Â Another example was that the first release of Roadblock won’t have double knees or ankles, but the Wave 2 “Battle Kata” version will, because he’s got more training.
Cutting articulation is not something anyone wants. Â Not the fans and not the Hasbro designers. Â But financial justifications seemed to warrant it in this case. Â Don’t worry about it overtaking the line, that is not a concern.
I guess the question then really is do we need drivers with the vehicles? Especially the larger vehicles. Only small vehicles and special large vehicles in the super successful Star Wars line have drivers, so why does every Joe vehicle need one? That would be one way to save costs as well.
But I’m not one of the people having a meltdown over the reduced articulation so I doubt my opinion matters in this discussion. :/
As I recall, usually it was the larger vehicles that came with drivers. A lot of the small vehicles that came with drivers in the RoC line wouldn’t have in the ARAH line. I wouldn’t mind going back to that at all if it meant saving costs that could be spread to other places.
It does seem odd to have some figures revert to an articulation level of a 1982 Action Force figure (especially when articulation is a key selling point for figures). I’m also concerned that the single carded figures are not coming with stands or filecards as well. It seems that the Joe line is being denigrated from what made it special to being no different than any other 3″ inch action figure line. Hasbro don’t see G.I. Joe as being a boutique line anymore, but simply a cheap mass market toy. Perhaps this is the only way it can survive. In an ideal world there would be two lines, one for the average Joe (yeah, I went for that) and one for the nostalgic collector, but at the end of the day it comes down to money
So basically they are saying that the 70’s flash back articulated figure will have heads that can pop onto other bodies… and basically saying that various characters share the same over all sculpt as far as the body is concerned? That’s not too much of a thing and at least they thought it out… if that is the case.
I say this with sarcasm dripping from it like a sodden rag: if costs are such a concern for vehicle drivers, why don’t they just drop the bodies altogether and pack-in just the new heads intsead? Then we can find our own bodies from the previously made figures to Frankenstein our own drivers. Lordy, but I figure quite a few collectors will be tossing the 5-POA figure bodies and doing exactly that anyway.
I understood what they were doing from the start, as its not difficult to reason out. Costs are ALWAYS a factor–its unavoidable.
But as a consumer, I’m demanding, and I make no apologies for it, nor do I readily accept excuses, when I want something specific. Although I can empathize with the difficulties they face in producing this stuff, I still speak with my dollars……..and I will not be parting with them for the vehicles.
Because kids like to have drivers for their vehicles? That seems like a no-brainer to me. I think that you’re forgetting that these are children’s toys first and foremost. If kids ate them up because every figure came with a stick of bubblegum you better believe that Hasbro will throw in that stick of gum no matter how many collectors complain about how their figures smell now.
Vehicle drivers have always been a bonus to begin with. There were many many vehicles in the RAH line that didn’t come with drivers at all. You know what I do when I get a vehicle with no driver? I either make one or use an existing figure to drive it. There are also many vehicles that come with drivers I don’t want. You know what I do with those? I chuck them in my parts bag and make a new one or use a different existing one. It seems silly to pass on a vehicle you may like just because you don’t like the driver it comes with.
Yeah, and I’d be okay with NO driver figure at all too………..but Mums & Dads out there, have long communicated to retailers that they dislike toys where they have to buy something else to “complete” it. That is why driver figures are warranted anyway. I understand that its all a juggling act with various factors at play………but as a consumer of these products myself……..well, I have certain demands too. I’m just saying these things are not meeting those demands, in this instance.
With regards to the vehicles, as they stand alone, none of them are grabbing me this time around either. I didn’t like almost every ROC vehicle when they came out………and, again, because I expected MORE from them than what we got. Granted, with ROC there was clearly more all-new vehicles made–but it was the combination of re-used older vehicles dropped into the ROC line, and the general cheapness of the ROC vehicles as a whole, just soured me on them.
I was hoping…….really hoping in my collector’s heart of hearts that what we saw over the past year and a bit with POC was the herald of a really kick-ass line of movie product. Alas, that perennial devil–costs and cost-cutting–rears its ugly/unwelcome head and affects the offerings.
C’est la vie……such things can be fickle, but then, so is my patronage when I don’t see what I want.
Maybe what you want just isn’t affordable to produce anymore.
Oh, it is….., the past year and a half proved it with POC.
Its the demands of a movie tie-in that gives us all these extra politics that affect the toy-lines.
The sad thing is…….every movie toy-line of late appears to be saddled with the same thing….because the product has been lack-lustre at best. The toys are more imaginative, inventive and just plain more compelling when they don’t have the dictates of a live-action movie calling the shots –especially in terms of design.
Hasbro was able to produce several all-new vehicles, many all-new detailed and POA-heavy figures-in the POC line, which was in-house–they bankrolled it.
Now there’s a movie line and poof………gotta cut costs.
I won’t pretend to understand how POC can field far more functional tooling/product as an in-house line with NO media tie-in at all…….and the Retaliation line with much more built in exposure has to compromise with few POA tooled figures.
What, is it retailers being skittish about a re-run of ROC-like product sticking on the shelves?
That’s possible.
The politics around these things go in a lot of directions.
Drop POAs, raise MSRPs, retailers raise prices, retailers demand certain numbers and kind of items, based on their sales projections, manufacturing schedule conflicts,……..its point and pick one. Could be any reason.
I don’t need to know what the real score is…….ultimately I don’t care much. Its the toys I care about and if they don’t pass muster, well………. how many more ways can I say it?
To be fair, the economy has been getting progressively worse. I can definitely see how increased costs and less customer spending is impacting Hasbro and forcing them to re-evaluate how they construct figures. Let’s not forget for PoC, figure tooling/design was happening probably over 2 years ago. A lot has changed economically since then. And not for the better.
Add onto that licensing costs for actor likenesses, etc… I can see why costs a tighter now than they have been over the past year or two.
I think having to make the likeness of the Rock does cost a lot. When you add in the costs of licenses and molds dictated by the movie designs then I can see how decisions get made. For me I will buy what I want and leave the rest. I just opened up Law and Order and you just can’t beat that level of articulation and detail. I sincerely hope in the future that Hasbro swings back that direction.
I don’t think that’s entirely out of the realm of possibility. However, until either the economy recovers or GIJoe becomes a massive hit on the level of Transformers, we’ll have to stick with what we’re getting.
You SHOULD care about why things are the way they are when participating in a discussion about them. especially when what you say seems based on the mentality that Hasbro is just doing it to piss you off or because they just suck like that. Hasbro knows quite well what we want out of this line, and they also know quite well what we don’t like. However, they also have the realities of the real world to take into account as well as the demands of retailers and also their target audience (which we are NOT). Further complaining about these changes without recognizing and accepting the reasons for those changes isn’t going to make any difference to the situation.
Erik-
Don’t make the mistake in thinking that I’m taking what Hasbro does (or does not do) personally. Cut me some slack there, willya, and don’t read things into what I write.
Hasbro is just a toy company and I’m just a consumer.
If they produce what I think is garbage, then what you or anyone else thinks isn’t going to change my mind. Taste and collecting habits are personal after all.
I don’t care about the “real world” as it applies to Hasbro—certainly not when my consumption is considered. My sympathies stop where my dollars start, and by golly I am as fickle as the next person.
If they make crap, I will not buy it.
I don’t care if they are saddled with cost restrictions–as IT’S NOT MY PROBLEM.
The relationship here is simple: When they make toys that meet my expectations, I will buy them. When they don’t, I take my money elsewhere, and along the way, I’ll wonder out loud wtf is up with Hasbro.
I’ve no need or reason to apologize for that, nor should anyone else.
In the same breathe, if someone else loves the stuff, more power to them–and that’s great too.
We’ve told you “wtf is up with Hasbro”. You just don’t seem to want to accept what you’ve been told.
Psssst, Erik……..subtle clue for you , bud……scroll up to where I wrote: “I say this with sarcasm dripping from it like a sodden rag…”.
Then read down a lil’ further to:
“I understood what they were doing from the start, as its not difficult to reason out. Costs are ALWAYS a factor–its unavoidable.”
I get it. You don’t have to work so hard. 😉
The drivers suck.
Those driver figures are barely even glorified Happy Meal toys……and we don’t even get fries with them.
As far as the drivers go the only one I really cared about was Clutch, that is a really great look that has gone to waste. As far as the $ saving measures they are taking it could really bite them in the ass. Yes they save $ by reducing articulation but they loose $ because the products don’t sell as well. With all of the Ninja and bright colors this is reminding me of the 90’s and we all remember what happened to GI Joe in the 90’s.
Hasbro is going down a dark path that leads straight to the clearance isle. Mattel produces action figures that have limited articulation like this and neither parents or adult collectors buy them. A good example is last summers Green Lantern line. The GL line had limited articulation that made the figures look cheap. High price point + bad articulation + limited paint applications = bad sales.
Comparing GI Joe to the Green Lantern line? That’s not even close to fair. Even with the 5 points of articulation, the Joe vehicle drivers look way better than anything from the GL line. Pick any Joe single pack fig from the upcoming movie line and how you can even draw a comparison to the GL Line is a huge stretch!
I am FAR more upset by the articulation cuts in the basic figures than the vehicles.
If they want to make the drivers junk but still pack something in for the kiddies I can see the reasoning.
But I despise this idea that they are the ones who will decide which figures should move properly and which should have locked ankles and poor knees. I LOVE that Cobra Commander but now it’s crap because he has no ankles. And we finally had a decent base to make a Slaughter and not pay $150 on eBay with RoadBlock, but now that’s toast too. I despise that I now have to do research to figure out which figures are decent enough for me to buy. One of the hallmarks of GI Joe was consistent, excellent articulation. They have completely blown that out.
It’s just BS. Yeah, now I have huge spring loaded missiles and rocket launchers that no person could ever carry (how ’bout cutting some cost and not making me throw that plastic CRAP into the landfill?), but they can’t move their ankles. BIG disappointment.
Add to that the new junk packaging which doesn’t even have character specific artwork.
What a way to “build a foundation”.
The lack of ankle POA really bugs me because that CC and Zartan sculpt are so cool!
Honestly, I don’t mind the articulation cuts. Every figure I have ever bought with super articulation, be it Joe or Marvel Legends or whatever, has always ended up disappointing me because the joints are loose and/or weak. Figures fall over, weapons pop out of hands, etc. and all I can think is, “If I were a kid, this toy would suck major ass. I can live with old Joe articulation honestly, the swivel wrists and flexi-ankles just annoy me. I know I’m in the minority here, but that’s what I think. However, this lameness with the rocket launcher garbage? Well, that’s one of the things that made the end of the original line so irritating. Give me imagination, not some cheesy gimmick. And for God’s sake, don’t tell me you’re cutting costs and then giving the figures some ridiculously oversized spring loaded piece of garbage.
Sam
can sumone answer me this a lot of these drivers are based on the movie characters IE snake eyes, duke, firefly and flint. instead of just using the new figure molds with say a different head they cut cost but creating a total new less articulated figure of the same character and insert that into the vehicle ? were the cost saving in that ?
In manufacturing and assembly. It costs far more to produce a figure like Renegades Storm Shadow than it does that Retaliation Clutch.
Just like Renegades, Articulation has been put on “Hiatus”… and you and I both know that “Hiatus” is Hasbro-eese for Cancled.
But the vehicles aren’t, by and large, bigger or better. In some cases, they are repaints of vehicles we have already received. In others, they are modified vehicles that we have already had. The only large vehicle we are getting that is new is the Ghost Hawk II, and in mine and many other opinions it looks lousy and very little like it’s movie likeness. I’m sure other vehicles will likely pop-up, but I don’t see the trade-off. Drivers have traditionally been a place where Hasbro slips in a classic or incredible new character. Remember the Steel Crusher Driver? The Night Raven pilot? The Rhino driver? So, this time Hasbro is essentially saying to fans – we are giving you a head, if you don’t like the torso, customize it. What will really be a kick in the nuts is when we see the price on these vehicles with limited new tooling and a much cheaper driver!
The movie looks good, don’t get me wrong, but so far it is missing the excitement RoC had when they showed us a Night Raven, when word of the Rhino leaked out, when we saw the Steel Crusher and the Gunship. Right out of the gate, the Retaliation vehicles and their drivers tell us how much has changed in three years.
Those motorcycles seem bigger! probably sigma 6 scale
That is more of detriment than a positive! I’m sure part of their being bigger than the Target Exclusive (but I’m not sure bigger than those Rip-It things) is the spring that shoots the front wheel out or whatever that action part is.
I took another look at Justin’s pics and am on the fence more now than earlier, maybe actually seeing them will
be the best judge. I kinda like the cobra bike, real cobra over the topish, with some akira as well
After getting the Renegades/30th figs Hasbro has bought some patience with me. I will admit that it defies logic that the same company who produced Lifeline just produced a single pack figure with less articulation than a 25th fig and 5 POA driver. I hope that the pendulum eventually swings back to more articulation but I will bide my time and enjoy the cool stuff from the movie and let the rest warm the shelves.
Vote with your dollars folks!!
At this point in time, voting with your dollars could well mean that the line will fail and we wont be getting any more GIJoe figures period. If GIJoe was doing well enough that things like that wouldn’t matter, then they wouldn’t be making these changes in the first place. People don’t seem to realize that this line has been limping along on life support for a while now. If this movie doesn’t give it a boost of adrenaline and make GIJoe toys a hit again, then it’s pretty well done.
Soooooooo……..what are we to do………buy stuff we don’t like??
Sorry, but to be polite, that is absurd.
If the stuff fails, it fails because it doesn’t deliver what consumers want, and it’ll deserve its fate if it cannot bring that to the table.
Like many collectors, I’m not “married” to a brand……..I like the product–when the product is good. I’ve bought GIJOE in many incarnations ( going back to the 1960’s), and I’ve bought some of the garbage that was made ( GIJOE Extreme) and there’s been a LOT of stuff that I passed on. Some of it was simply junk.
The GIJOE brand won’t die, so that “reasoning” doesn’t hold water. GIJOE has gone away about 7-8 times before already, in those various previous incarnations……….AND ITS ALWAYS COME BACK in some form or another.
Ironically, several times before when it failed as a toyline, the failures were immediately preceded by the offering of 5-POA figures ( Defenders, GIJOE Extreme), so if the upcoming offerings tank and the line “dies” again……so be it.
It’ll come back again for the 50th anniversary of the 12″ line, in 2014, in some fashion, and the cycle will continue……
So you’re advocating we all go out and buy the stuff we don’t like to support the line and that will lead to better figures? How would Hasbro not perceive that as approval of limited POA?
I’m not saying buy stuff you don’t like. I’m saying that you shouldn’t let lack of ankle joints or whatever prevent you from buying a figure you DO like. Likewise, you shouldn’t let the lack of a decent driver prevent you from buying a vehicle you like. Hasbro KNOWS that we aren’t happy about the limited POA. THEY aren’t happy about it either but it’s a necessary evil.
gotta say, Hasbro actually seems to care about it’s GI Joe and Star Wars fans (IE Tells them what they want to know.), but I really seems like it doesn’t give a crap about the Marvel lines. Anyways, I’m perfectly fine with reduced driver articulation. As long as they fit in the cockpit, I’m good.
I was a pretty hardcore completist with ROC. With Resolute, I doubt I’ll pick up more than 5 -10 figures.
Sorry- didn’t finish!
These figures and the on again/ off again articulation just aren’t doing it for me. There are a few repaints that look nice, as well as the Joe trooper and the new Roadblock and Joe Colton, but after everything we’ve received with POC, Renegades, and the 30th, this just seems like too big of a step back.
Recently, Hasbro has done for 1/18th figures what Hot Toys and Sideshow do for the 1/6th scale. I hope Hasbro has the success they want with kids and moms, but I think other than a few figures, I’ll be sitting this round out.